Comments on It's About Oshkosh Students: Will the Oshkosh BOE Cave or Stand Firm?

I also like option E2, as Mrs. Theil refers to it ...

2007-08-24T12:51:00.000-05:00

I also like option E2, as Mrs. Theil refers to it as. I don't remember the gentleman presenter's name either, but he made a valid point the Sawyer Creek subdivision is divided from the area N of 21 by much commercial development and Hwy 21. Taking one neighborhood from N of 21 starting at Hwy 41 and moving west until the correct number of students is reached makes more sense.

Actually after listening to the comments at the bo...

2007-08-24T01:32:00.000-05:00

Actually after listening to the comments at the board meeting, I like Option E 2 presented by a gentleman whose name I can't recall. It makes more sense to me to NOT take students from Franklin and to take the students out of Oakwood since that school is over crowded... to the point where I have heard that they have a first or second grade classroom with 37 students and two teachers -- that is just wrong and I don't understand why anyone would want their child in such circumstances. There needs to be a boundary shift to move students out of Oakwood so it is not over crowded.

In the end, whatever area is chosen, (assuming anything ever is chosen) people will be upset, they will have lots of arguments why it is bad for kids (so go move those kids over there --- NOT MY KIDS) and eventually this too shall pass and there will be something else that has people up in arms.

Of course at the pace this is going, they may not be any boundary changes for 5-10 more years. Maybe we should just move to what Mr. Schneider kept mentioning... 25-30 in a class, that will save some dollars and leave schools not as crowded.

And guess what is next on the horizon? budget cuts... I'm sure that will be without controversy.

Do you honestly think that Option E is the best op...

2007-08-23T21:56:00.000-05:00

Do you honestly think that Option E is the best option? It sounds to me like you just want the board to vote in favor of it so that it can all be done. In light of the arguments presented at the meeting yesterday, do you not have questions about Option E? Aren't you worried about the fact that the projected numbers for Oakwood magically changed in two weeks to show that there would not be overcrowding at Oakwood in the next few years given Option E? I would rather the board make a good decision rather than make a decision for the sake of making one. This Option does not make logical sense given the Sawyer Creek portion. Projections as of 8/8/07 show that Oakwood will still be overcrowded. I think a great deal of people in Oshkosh would be very frustrated to vote for this plan and then have to be back again in 3 years to solve the, what seems to be continual, problem of Oakwood being full. Why not actually address that problem in a plan for once.

Anon. 1:31I don't consider it "parent involvement"...

2007-08-21T17:02:00.000-05:00

Anon. 1:31

I don't consider it "parent involvement" in our schools when in these cases the only involvement wanted is to stop a boundary change that affects them.

I think it is very frustrating the number of people who have no interest in what the district is doing are supposedly not even aware the district is discussing boundary changes until it affects them and then they come out complaining the district is "trying to slip something by them", didn't even know this was being considered etc.

I believe parents have every right to advocate for what they want but I don't believe it is responsible, or appropriate for the district to stop or back away from any action just because parents are opposed to it. I think the arguments I have heard against boundary changes are weak. Where is the "mounds" of evidence that a child who goes to a different school than their friend or neighbor or classmate will suffer educationally? I don't buy that argument and I don't buy the "clear across town" argument as Mapquest shows the differences in most cases are less than a mile and less than 5 min. different.

So, I am not opposed to parents being involved but I don't think every argument brought forth is a valid reason to stop a plan that in some ways the district has spent anywhere from 2 to 8 years studying.

Who besides you says she's opposed to parents bein...

2007-08-21T16:03:00.000-05:00

Who besides you says she's opposed to parents being involved? If anything she has complained about parents not being involved enough at the board meetings and voters not going to the polls to vote.

This sounds like nothing more than another question from the terribly confused, wanting-to-provoke, Michelle Monte. She likes to jab at people - it's her favorite pasttime, as long as she thinks she can look good in the process. And she alway gets her stories twisted (oh yeah, but that's our fault for misunderstanding her). She claims to be an "experienced educator" and an English major but she can't demonstrate proficiency in either area. All she does is talk down about the district administration and board members she doesn't like. With the vile and negativity that flows from her lips is it any wonder her breath stinks like it does?

I guess I am wondering why Ms. Theil is so opposed...

2007-08-21T14:31:00.000-05:00

I guess I am wondering why Ms. Theil is so opposed to parents becoming involved in the process. Isn't this local politics? Isn't this the prime level for people to be intimately involved in their governance or would you rather that people just sit back and do nothing?

This was written by Old Abe and posted on Oshkonve...

2007-08-16T21:22:00.000-05:00

This was written by Old Abe and posted on Oshkonversation. But it is so outstanding it needs to be posted here and board members need to take it to heart and do what they believe is right for all the kids in the district, not just some. They'll never please everyone and no matter what they come up with some one will always be unhappy. Here's Old Abe's thoughts. Go get 'em tiger.

"Having recently retired from the Oshkosh Area School District I'd like to share some thoughts as an "insider" which hopefully will provoke thoughts in others.
One of the misguided goals of the school board/administration is attempting to please everyone. With the increasing diversity the community and ultimately the school system experiences, the more opinions are formed and the goal of consensus becomes unrealistic. Imagine gathering representatives of all the different religious groups of Oshkosh and instructing them to develop a philosophy which every one present subscribes to.
The operation of the school system has gradually evolved in my 30+ years in the district from encouraging parent INVOLVEMENT to one of parent CONTROL. The result is treating parents as customers/consumers of district services and seeking any interaction with a parent hoping they leave pleased and satisfied. What is pleasing to a parent sometimes is not in the best interest educationally for their son/daughter.
The current climate fostered by the school board/administration is one where we don't stand for something and end up falling for any thing.
Since decisions are not being made improvement does not occur and the whole system becomes dysfunctional.
Many years ago the school system tore down Longfellow School and sent the children elsewhere, sold Boyd School to Oshkosh Truck, sold Dale School to a developer who made it into an apartment complex, and closed Grange School which is currently the Town of Algoma town hall.
I bring these examples to light recalling how these actions were accepted by the community with only minimal frustration from the parties involved. Attempting to please everyone was not a goal of those previous school boards/administration and action on situations took place.

Another anxiety I believe the current school administration possesses is the prospect that some dissatisified parents may opt to send their children to parochial schools, home school them, leave the district and seek open enrollment in a neighboring community which will result in less state aid and worse budgeting outcomes.
The best course of proceeding from the current stalement to a workable solution, in my opinion, is one that parallels the strategy used by the school board/administration ( although the makeup is now different) in seeing that the last school referendum held by the district passed.
Administrators and school board members made visits in the evenings to all schools explaining the pluses and minuses of each scenario to parents and other members of the respective school communities. The planned option agreed upon by the school board was tweaked along the route of school visits/listening sessions if parent suggestions were judged to be in the best interest of the entire district. The modified plan left standing at the end was then adopted. I believe this example of personalized communication is vital to the adoption of a facilities plan boundary change, etc.
While I don't have a better option or ideas than are already on the table I do know that some catalyst needs to be injected into the current talks to change the dynamic of "if I don't make a decision I won't upset anyone" to " the community expects us to be strong leaders "when the going gets rough" and it's time move this process along!"

Sorry, I meant 8:51 not 8:15.

2007-08-13T09:52:00.000-05:00

Sorry, I meant 8:51 not 8:15.

You must care, 8:15AM. You keep on coming and you ...

2007-08-13T09:51:00.000-05:00

You must care, 8:15AM. You keep on coming and you keep on posting.

You go right on believing your own circular logic....

2007-08-13T09:15:00.000-05:00

You go right on believing your own circular logic. While you are at it, keep believing in Santa and the Tooth Fairy and fairies in general. They are about the only ones who care anymore. Enjoy irrelevancy, Teresa.

Let's see if I have this right; Mrs. Thiel only ha...

2007-08-12T20:02:00.000-05:00

Let's see if I have this right; Mrs. Thiel only has 1 supporter despite voting records to the contrary. But when Michelle Monte is criticized suddenly it's got to be either Teresa or Cheryl because Monte has so many supporters in all those who voted for her?? What twisted logic. You're a few bricks short of a load.

Further proving how twisted your logic is let's look at your own statement. Judging by what you wrote one can assume you are not Teresa or Cheryl, but you've offered nothing to explain where the record is wrong or to set anything straight. You just disproved your own comment.

Forget about bringing flowers to lift the mood; your failed attempts at being a logician have done far more than any bouquet could ever do.

Now we know the real Teresa Thiel and the limited ...

2007-08-12T19:38:00.000-05:00

Now we know the real Teresa Thiel and the limited intellect of her lone supporter.

I suspect that if it weren't for those who come to this blog to set the record straight, only Teresa and Cheryl would be posting here.

There are really only 2: her's and her husband's. ...

2007-08-12T07:47:00.000-05:00

There are really only 2: her's and her husband's. Readers on the other blogs don't seem to like her much either.

Exactly where are the inacuracies? Ms. Monte did ...

2007-08-11T18:38:00.000-05:00

Exactly where are the inacuracies? Ms. Monte did claim on OshKonversation that she was an "experienced" educator and she further explained that she taught for less than one school year and was laid off.

If you don't want to discuss the issues because you either don't understand the facts or just plain don't have any there are plenty of other blogs you can go to, to cheerlead for Mrs. Monte.

More innacurracies frum the Theil Camp, huh. I gu...

2007-08-11T18:21:00.000-05:00

More innacurracies frum the Theil Camp, huh. I guess all da knowin folks is here an da res ub us is too dumb.

Looks like anons here are just as misleading as they claim Monte is.

So right. You also won't find teachers who claim t...

2007-08-11T18:13:00.000-05:00

So right. You also won't find teachers who claim to be experienced educators but who in reality only have a few months or less of classroom experience as Mrs. Monte has time and time again.

It is difficult to "discuss issues" when Anon. pos...

2007-08-11T17:50:00.000-05:00

It is difficult to "discuss issues" when Anon. posters keep throwing out "information" with no data to back it up and inaccurate too often.

I think if you checked it out in Oshkosh you would find that most "middle school" teachers have either a 1-8 certification or a 7-12 certification, which certification is in the "majority" probably depends on the school. I do know there a at least a couple teachers at Traeger Middle who have a 1-6 certification and therefor cannot be shifted to teach either 7th or 8th grade. I don't believe you will find many teachers in our middle schools with a 6-12 certification.

However, none of that really matters because we already have 4th and 5th grade teachers they currently teach in our elementary schools, under the new configuration they would just move to the intermediate school to teach, which would not require a shifting of middle school teacher to 4th or 5th grade, because they are actually needed where they are to teach 6th, 7th and 8th graders.

Do you know what the reimbursement is for college classes and what the actual tution cost is??? And what does that have to do with so-called inefficiencies in teachers licenses?

Is there anyone out there who actually wants to discuss whether the board should once again listen to those who are upset their child will have to go to a different school and therefore, do NOTHING? Since all boundary changes will require a students going to a different school the only option seems to be to keep all our schools open, don't change any boundaries and give Oakwood and Green Meadow a new school. Is that really the wishes of the majority in the community?

You people are really funny. Where is the discuss...

2007-08-11T16:47:00.000-05:00

You people are really funny. Where is the discussion of issues? Where is the debate of important school matters? Not here. Here we would rather try to identify someone who is asking questions and only getting part of them answered. Maybe that is why Mrs. Thiel got more than 1000 votes LESS than Mrs. Monte, because Thiel only answers what she wants.

Here is something forgotten about teacher licenses. Most teachers in middle schools tend to be either K-8 or 6-12 with the latter outnumbering the former. With a 6-12 license, one cannot teach 4-5, therefore no shifting in those levels.

Another matter, licensing is up to the teacher to pay for but continuing education reimbursement is a benefit of being employed in this district as in many districts. It only costs $100 for a license application process and renewal process. It cost the taxpayers thousands in credit reimbursement.

Could well be. Either that or doing a play on word...

2007-08-11T14:07:00.000-05:00

Could well be. Either that or doing a play on words with Ann for "Ann"onymous. Then again, I'm sure Michelle and her supporters would say she's just trying to be a "new voice" on the school board for the taxpayers and because she's not popular she's got a "target" on her back and that she and her husband are just a couple of innocent "czhead"s. Maybe, if they were just "sitting in the weeds." "Lying" in wait is something else.

According to her website it is Michelle A (could t...

2007-08-11T12:56:00.000-05:00

According to her website it is Michelle A (could that be Ann?) Monte.

Just because "Ann" has had a good experience with ...

2007-08-11T11:39:00.000-05:00

Just because "Ann" has had a good experience with Mrs. Monte means nothing. She wears 2 faces: the real one and the mask. Ann doesn't read very well but then again, neither doesn't Mrs. Monte. Who knows, maybe "Ann" is yet another face of Monte's.

As for the 4000 votes she got, it doesn't make her right. It only means she fools a lot of people. It still wasn't enough to get her elected. That's the only thing that matters.

Anonymous 9:21: First of all there are a number of...

2007-08-11T10:59:00.000-05:00

Anonymous 9:21:

First of all there are a number of different teaching licenses out there:

For regular education teacher licenses there are: Pre K- 9, Pre K- 8, Pre K-3, K-3, K-6, K-8, 1-6, 1-8, 7-12, 9-12 and for some like a reading specialist K-12... those are just the ones I'm aware of there are different special education licenses and there could well be other regular education licenses.

Secondly, most of the current teachers teaching 4th and 5th graders would continue to teach 4th and 5th graders just in the interemediate school. Because you will have the efficiencies described before, you will probably have more teachers than you need though with retirements and people moving it usually ends up that teachers won't lose their job, there are just fewer teachers due to attrition. Also, any current middle school teacher licensed to teach 6th grade is very likely licensed to teach 4 and 5th grade (which is sometimes a problem in the middle schools as those teachers with a 1-6 license can only teach 6th grade) so actually an intermediate school might allow for more shifting of teachers if necessary, though that really has little to do with efficiencies, just makes it easier for the principal to shift teachers if someone leaves etc.

Finally, the district does NOT pay for teachers' licenses, the teachers themselves pay for their license.

I have a question...With the K-3 4-8 configuration...

2007-08-11T10:21:00.000-05:00

I have a question...

With the K-3 4-8 configuration, do the teachers at the different levels have to get different licenses? There has been extensive talk on sites about efficiencies but if I am not mistaken, aren't the teaching licenses broken up into K-5 6-12? And if that is the case, who is going to teach 4-5 in the middle schools if the teachers that are there don't have a license?

I see a problem. Either there are going to be a ton of layoffs for those who cannot or will not get a different license. Or an added expense to the district to get the current staff the correct license.

Either way. Not really efficient is it.

Just some data:Janesville Free/Reduced Lunch 26.2O...

2007-08-11T10:20:00.000-05:00

Just some data:

Janesville Free/Reduced Lunch 26.2
Oshkosh Free/Reduced Lunch 31.6

While Janesville may have about the same number of students (they actually have 282 more) Oshkosh has a higher percentage of students who qualify for Free/Reduced Lunch.

Second: According to the Wisconsin State Journal Feb. 9, 2007

"Janesville school officials already have scaled back their commitment to SAGE, keeping just two of five schools in the program."

So contrary to what "ann" wrote and what Ms. Monte has written elsewhere Janesville did NOT eliminate SAGE just scaled it back (probably to those schools with over 40% poverty).

Finally "ann" there is NO SAGE school in Oshkosh with only 2 out of 15 that qualify for F/R lunch and I highly doubt that the SAGE planning team would suggest such a school be SAGE in the future.

I find it sad that there are people out there advocating that we eliminate SAGE in the district and at the same time arguing that we build a whole new school for Oakwood because that is where people are building new homes and we don't need to spend money to fix up the schools in town, we need that money for the new Oakwood. Let those poor kids deal with what we have, it is good enough.

How is she a viper? I go to the occassional meeti...

2007-08-11T08:35:00.000-05:00

How is she a viper? I go to the occassional meeting. I have read her blog. I have even talked to her (have you?). She has never been anything but nice, even about the people she doesn't like. As a matter of fact, she was talking the other day, after a committee meeting how she admires Shelly Muza's passion though she doesn't agree with her. She even complimented Heilmann. Though I expected her to say something about Bowen and Weinsheim, she didn't and not for lack of opportunity as we were with a small group of like minded people.

Sounds like you have an ax to grind and no grinding wheel. If anyone doesn't have a clue it is Thiel and her SAGE theories. Janesville, same size as us, ended SAGE because the extra $2000 did not cover expenses of smaller classes though the program is successful. $2000 is only for the free/reduced lunch students. If you have a class of 15 and only 2 qualify, you aren't even putting a dent in expenses for that room.

As far as Michelle Monte, I voted for her as did over 4000 other people. That tells me more about your opinion and accusations than the words themselves.