I have moved some comments from the "Candidates" thread to this one as they are about the referendum not the candidates. I would really like people to focus on the issues (using facts would be great but I know many bloggers don't want to bother with that). If the post isn't on topic I'll delete, if that becomes too much work I'll have to go to moderating (which I really don't want to do and if that becomes too cumbersome I'll just shut the blog down).
This thread is to post questions, concerns or opinions you have about the proposed referendum, I know there isn't a lot of information out there right now but I expect that to change very soon. We don't need a rehashing of the Ryf Road site, that has been decided, that will be where a new school, if approved, is located. So maybe posters could focus on the other two questions, and if you don't support those, please explain how you think the district should go about fixing up its buildings? Should any buildings be closed? How would YOU decide which buildings to close? Which buildings to repair? Which buildings aren't worth repairing?
If you want to talk about candidates for the School Board, please post on that thread. If you just want to post nasty things, find a different blog.
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113 comments:
Note: this was moved from candidates thread:
Anonymous said...
To those who keep saying the referendum will fail and citing the poor economy as the reason, you have yet to explain how it is that other districts with the same kind of economic woes as us, have passed referendums. Waiting for your answer....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Tuesday, January 6, 2009 7:02:00 PM CST
Note: moved from candidates thread:
Anonymous said...
7:02
It really doesn't matter what anybody here predicts and it doesn't really matter if other referendums have passed.
The voters of the Oshkosh area will decide this referendum and if I were in support of it I would start the PR campaign asap. Because all reports I have heard point to an uphill battle.
The BOE has very little credibility. The $15,000,000 new school makes little sense and the economy is in the tank.
It doesn't look good.
Tuesday, January 6, 2009 8:03:00 PM CST
Moved from candidates thread:
Anonymous said...
Ok, you got me.
What other referendums have passed in this poor economy? Remember that the economy has really started to nosedive in September or October and I think most would argue that things are worse today than they were even then. So, what referendums have passed since then?
Tuesday, January 6, 2009 9:01:00 PM CST
Moved from candidates thread:
Anonymous said...
There were several of them in November. Put those 'puter skills to better use and Google them.
It's nice to see you say it doesn't matter what you predict about our own referendum. So why keep harping about it then? 'Fraid it just might pass?
Tuesday, January 6, 2009 9:03:00 PM CST
Moved from candidates thread:
Anonymous said...
I did a google search and found none, so I guess you were wrong.
Tuesday, January 6, 2009 9:22:00 PM CST
Moved from candidates thread:
Anonymous said...
The following demonstrates historical data of the number of referendum elections proposed in the state of Wisconsin, the number of referendum elections passed per election cycle and the total amount of dollars that the board of education is seeking to grow above the revenue limits for individual Wisconsin school district.
2008
* Woodruff school referendum (2008) $880,000 Failed
* Chetek school referendum (2008) $1,200,000 Passed
* Durand school referendum (2008) $1,200,000
* Hartford school referendum (2008 $593,000 Failed
* Manawa school referendum (2008) $195,000
* Pecatonica area school referendum (2008) $350,000 Cancelled
* Plum City area school referendum (2008) $1,050,000 Failed
* Washburn school referendum (2008) $900,000
* Weston school referendum (2008) $644,000 Failed
* Gilmanton school referendum (2008) $125,000 Passed
* Salem school referendum (2008) $1,595,000 Election
* Lafarge school referendum (2008) $250,000 Cancelled
* Seneca school referendum (2008) $800,000 Passed
Looks like more failed than passed, but some did pass
Wednesday, January 7, 2009 6:09:00 AM CST
Moved from candidates thread:
Anonymous said...
And none over 2 million...
Wednesday, January 7, 2009 6:18:00 AM CST
Moved from candidates thread:
Anonymous said...
There have been others that passed too. But glad you concede some passed in these tough economic times.
Wednesday, January 7, 2009 6:34:00 AM CST
Moved from candidates thread:
Anonymous said...
Our $800.00 per day Administrators referendum will fail in historic fashion. The taxpayers are tapped out. Jobs are lost. People are unemployed. Others are underemployed. No one has money to give to this plan. It will fail!
Wednesday, January 7, 2009 6:47:00 AM CST
Moved:
Anonymous said...
What is the plan for Oaklawn if the new northside school doesn't pass?
Wednesday, January 7, 2009 7:22:00 AM CST
Moved:
Anonymous said...
None over $2 million and this does not tell us if the passed referendums were for wants or needs or if they were for a ridiculous new elementary school in an area with declining declining attendance that city kids will have to be bussed to.
You see, my point still stands that the economy is only one of the strikes against this referendum.
Wednesday, January 7, 2009 7:36:00 AM CST
Moved:
Anonymous said...
Are you sure the district is in declining enrollment? Are you sure the area is? I am just asking as I have not seen any information on...Thanks!
If it is true, it seems counterintuitive to build more when they don't have the population to support. Also, building more when they don't devote the necessary money to maintain the existing is questionable too.
What's going to happen in 10 years if a new school is built, close it down since the population is smaller like Green meadow?
Wednesday, January 7, 2009 12:02:00 PM CST
Moved:
Anonymous said...
If anyone could post the information regarding the declining enrollment, that would be most appreciated....Thanks!
Also, does anyone have information on the increased (assumed) operational costs of operating the proposed school on Ryf road?
Thanks again!
Thursday, January 8, 2009 8:52:00 AM CST
Moved:
Anonymous said...
"District Growth and enrollment Projections" is a bound report of the findings of Martensen & Isley. (sp?) It is available at the district office.
It details the fact that enrollment is declining, even with west side growth. Enrollment is decreasing at all levels in all areas, including the West side, and will continue to decline for the next 5-10 years according to projections. The numbers are obviously best guesses given birth rates, building permits, and overall population. Martensen and Isley are very reputable and have historically done well to contribute accurate, unbiased information to the townships and the school district.
Given that information, it is completely crazy to build a new school with significant room for population growth when the former sunset kids are well situated at Read; and the Oaklawn population as well as the Lincoln populations could be nicely and reasonably housed in other ways.
final note: C'mon Mrs. Theil...delete the ridiculous off topic bickering.
Thursday, January 8, 2009 2:10:00 PM CST
My concern on either of the 2 referendum questions is;
Why did the Board vote to cut $300K from the maintenance budget recently, only to approve the referendum questions asking to seek money to exceed revenue caps to put money toward maintenance?
Throwing money at things is never the answer.
We need an actual goal for our buildings. Using money towards reducing utility bills- fix windows, leaky plumbing, roofs and heating systems should be top on the list. These investments will have more of a long-term return.
Closing some of our buildings should also be a priority. There are plenty of buildings in our district that could hold students from other schools that are too old, too costly to maintain, and are at the tail end of their productive life span. Yes, these will be emotional decisions, but in the long run they will benefit our entire community. Staffing, another one of our greatest expenses, will be reduced when the number of buildings goes down.
We should continue to put dollars away for long-term maintenance needs, and perhaps even a new building SOMEDAY.
With fewer buildings and staff savings, there is no need to go to the public for more money. We have $117M to spend each year. How can we not keep within that amount?
Anon Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:59:00 PM CST said "We have $117M to spend each year. How can we not keep within that amount?"
I always wonder if it is worth it to try and "answer" this question. For the most part bloggers don't seem to be looking for information, rather just a place to bash the board and administration. But, on the off chance there are people out there reading this blog and really looking for information...
The state requires that 80-85% of your budget (teacher salaries, and by extension other employees salaries) increase by 3.8% each year while at the same time limiting the revenue increase to about 2.5%. It doesn't take a math expert to understand that if you are increasing expenses by more than you increase revenues there will be a problem.
If your personal expenses - mortgage, gasoline, utilities, taxes, increased by 3.8% and your raise was only 2% wouldn't you have a deficit in your budget, requiring you to cut back in some area? Would that also mean that you mismanaged your money? I don't think so, most of the increases are out of your control so you must decide where to cut back.
Anonymous
Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:59:00 PM CST said "Why did the Board vote to cut $300K from the maintenance budget recently, only to approve the referendum questions asking to seek money to exceed revenue caps to put money toward maintenance?
Throwing money at things is never the answer. "
The answer to that is, there was a mistake in the budget projections, when the current budget director looked over the budget he found the error, given the timing of finding the error (after the statutory date for teacher layoffs which I beleive is in Feb. - though it might be April) there were very few areas to cut to balance the budget so the dollars were taken from maintenance to balance the budget.
I would ask you, how would you repair our buildings if not by using money?
Teresa:
I believe the obvious answer to the problems addressed in your last post is to reduce the number of teachers we have. How would you propose we do that?
I would say that we could look at reducing the number of SAGE schools and consider cutting back or eliminating the curiculum support specialist team.
Teresa:
Now that you are back from vacation, can you try to summarize the main reasons you support a new school on the Ryf Road site?
Anonymous Sunday, January 11, 2009 7:45:00 PM CST said "Now that you are back from vacation, can you try to summarize the main reasons you support a new school on the Ryf Road site?"
FYI I was not on "vacation" I was on a business trip. I will post my reasons for supporting a school on the Ryf Road site in the next few days, I'm just too tired to go there tonight.
There was a story on WBAY news this morning that Kaukauna might have to lay off 30 or so teachers. They have budget problems and also are having problems with a lack of money to fix maintenance problems with the schools.
Is Oshkosh looking at a teacher lay off?
Is it fair to blame the State funding system and others for our budgetting woes or would it be more responsible to cut staff?
I'd look at it just like you might in your personal life.
If you lose your job, you can blame your company, your skills, the economy, the President...you can blame anyone, but ultimately you are in charge of your family.
So given that, the first thing you need to do is make cuts and circle the wagons until things get better and you find another job.
So making cuts to a family budget is no different that this case. The biggest expense is labor, so you need to surgically cut labor costs.
I suggested exactly how I would cut the budget- by closing some of our schools or other buildings. I did forget to add to that list Central Office. If there's room in a school like Tipler that is right next store and could make room for an entire elementary school, close Central Office, sell the land or building, and move the district offices next door. It would be a very easy transition.
I thought you were also in favor of closing some schools. Since we have overwhelming maintenance needs, continuing declining enrollment and high staffing costs and numbers, how else can we reduce our expenditures?
Seriously, why would we even consider asking the community for more money when we haven't even taken any steps to reduce our costs by closing some facilities?
The state requires that 80-85% of your budget (teacher salaries, and by extension other employees salaries) increase by 3.8% each year while at the same time limiting the revenue increase to about 2.5%. It doesn't take a math expert to understand that if you are increasing expenses by more than you increase revenues there will be a problem.
Teresa, you wrote the above. If the state requires 80-85% goes up 3.8%, and 80% of 117,100,000 is 93,600,000 and 3.8% of that amount is: 3,55 million,
Then why has the board been supporting increases of 4.2% and above?
4.2% of 93,600,000 is $3,931,200 which is about $ 400,000 more than the 3.8%.
So what you are telling me is the board is paying more than they need to by over $400,000 each year and that IS A reason for not having enough money?? ADD up all the years and you have millions of deferred maintenance to PAY FOR!
I know when you were on the board, you couldn't vote for the teachers, however, this board just passed $ 10,000 pay raises for some administrators and gave some a labor group 4.7% pay raise so NOW WE KNOW where the money goes.
Thanks board and thanks incumbents for spending my kids maintenance money on salary and benefits. I guess I'll have to pay for it with MY PAYCUT!!
Well written 10:10!
You should run for the board. I'd vote for you!
NO labor group in the Oshkosh School District got 4.7% PAY raise, they MIGHT have gotten a 4.7% PACKAGE increase--- big difference.
How come no one has a problem with Becker telling the custodian union not to worry that he'll "take care of them"? Why is it only teachers salaries that are complained about? There are a number of custodians making more than teachers...
Where is your proof that Becker promised to take care of the costodial union people?
"Costodial?" Nice Freudian slip, anonymous.
I believe we have also cut quite a few custodians.
Now the radio reported Quad Graphics is laying off people. For YEARS they did nothing but hire!
The economy stinks!
There is no way a majority of people will support any referendum now.
EVERYONE, including the school district has to tighten the belt and do alot more with alot less.
I'd say cut positions across the board from administration, to teachers, aids and janitors if you have to.
Labor is the biggest expense for sure. You need to understand that people will not want more on their taxes.
I heard on the radio tonight that the Oshkosh school system was in a budget shortfall of several million dollars.
What are the plans to make up this shortage?
Kaukauna is looking to lay off teachers.
As I understand by another radio report LA is also looking at laying off teachers.
It looks like maybe the voters and taxpayers are saying enough is enough. We can't pay more..you'll need to cut back.
I think cost reductions at all levels are a good thing and the BOE and school board should look at making some cuts here in Oshkosh.
Anonymous said "We can't pay more..you'll need to cut back."
Just wondering if you noticed that you Oshkosh School District Taxes are actually less this year (unless your house increased in value since last year) than they were last year? It is a small amount but it is a DECREASE nonetheless so to say "we can't pay more" really doesn't apply.
I moved two posts to the School Board Election Thread.
10:38 I think the concept is that people have lost jobs. People have taken jobs at far less pay. People are not receiving healthcare coverage as they have in the past. All that is in the private sector.
Many think that the public sector is insulated from these economic conditions.
When they see teachers getting compensation increase of something like 4%.......and they have lost a job and are now working twice as hard for half as much, there is just no sympathy for crys in the public sector that 4% isn't enough!
I think the economy will get worse in 2009. I just don't believe there is enough support to move any referendum forward.
I think the taxpayers want the public sector (city, county, state, schools) to make cuts and do with what they have.
Now the radio says Oshkosh schools might face teachers layoffs. That might not be a bad thing.
Teresa said, "It is a small amount but it is a DECREASE nonetheless so to say "we can't pay more" really doesn't apply."
How dense are you? There is a $26,000,000 referendum coming our way.
I just want to remind posters that the $26MM referendum is the first part of a plan for two referenda totalling more than $60MM.
If you think $26MM is bad, there's more asking on the way.
And the killer part of it all is that the $26MM doesn't even address some of the biggest problems.
I want Lang to succeed here. I like the leadership she provides. I wish she was hired under better conditions.
I'm interested in finding out about Wiedenhoeft sp? I don't think I can vote for an incumbent or MM. Anyone know about him?
What I would like to know about this referendum is;
How will the board change the way they do business if we continue to give them more?
Seems like we have been giving them more every year just about and our problems seem to get worse?
Is it a spending problem?
Is it a spending problem?
In a word...YES.
85% of expenses are related to employee wages and benefits.
In an economy where everyone’s wages are capped, stagnant, declining, public sector workers (ie: teachers) feel that as they belong to a public sector union they should be immune to the economic turmoil felt by those in real jobs in the private sector.
Bottom line, control (ie: REDUCE) spending on the biggest expense you have. Labor!
I would say that we need to reduce spending everywhere so that we can increase spending on maintenance. I would not focus only on the staff wages.
With that said, I do believe that the idea of cutting teachers or teachers wages has been totaly rejected by the board majority for too long. I would propose that the BOE candidates be asked directly,:
1. How would you propose to cut spending?
2. Are you in favor of reducing the number of teachers?
3. Are you in favor of holding teachers raises to 3.8% as law requires?
Um, I heard Ms. Weinsheim say "NEXT summer, sometime" to begin the process to look for a new Super. Did I hear that correctly- we would not begin the process again until 2010?
I'll have plenty of time to think about this while my children are potentially in school on a Saturday to make up for the days lost to inclement weather.
I love each and every teacher that any of my children have had, but I cannot stand for the craziness of this severely drawn line between the Union, the Board, the staff and the rest of the community. Not one person that I know voted for a 2 week holiday break, and yet there it was. Not one person I know would NOT leave days in the calendar for inclement weather, yet here we are again. Not one person I know wants their kids out early every other Wednesday, but yet they are. Not one person that I know agrees with us having one of, it not THE SHORTEST SCHOOL YEAR IN THE STATE. Not one person I know is in favor of having this "all kids must have both feet out of the door at dismissal time as we're cutting into teacher prep time", but that's what we have with several hundred kids herded around the building to get them OUT OF THAT CLASSROOM ON TIME. I believe I also heard the words "15% benefit increase" last night at the Board meeting in regards to teacher's benefits for next year.
Our next Board must do a better job of negotiating, and must be reasonable and realistic with what we can and cannot afford. I don't want folks to get angry at their teachers because of the way they are represented!!!!
something has to be done to stop this entitlement maddness from the unions!
Next summer is in 2009 not 2010. You could also call it this summer. But technically it is the next summer we will have and anyone who has followed this should know they've been talking about the search after the referendum vote is done, planned for April. Sounds to me like someone just wants to pick on Mrs. Weinsheim again.
10:45 said "Sounds to me like someone just wants to pick on Mrs. Weinsheim again."
I disagree. Ms. Weinsheim is as irrelevant as George Bush is at this time.
She's a Lame Duck
Mrs. W did say "next summer". Maybe it was miscommunication, or maybe it was meant as 2010. Either way, it's not necessary to belittle posters.
Again, next summer is technically in 2009 so Weinsheim didn't misspeak. There was no belittling of posters as there are some on here who enjoy nothing better than picking on this woman every chance they get. 6:51 AM is a classic example of those individuals (maybe even the same person trying to look like different people). We've seen horrible cases of that kind of behavior on Michelle Monte's blog for years now. The rhetoric there has gone far beyond disagreeing with Weinsheim's politics so if you think this was belittling someone, go check it out. While doing so consult Webster's for the definition of belittling.
Go to the NW website and check out the Snow Day Blog.
http://www.thenorthwestern.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090115/OSH0101/90115109
Not much community support for the BOE and teachers union from most of the posters on that site.
I agree with them. Time for a change at the BOE
How dare that BOE causing all this nasty snow.
True leaders lead by doing, not just saying no. That's why naysayers will NEVER have my vote.
Re: Hiring a new super and saying "next summer": I was simply allowing for the possiblity that the semantics of the language allow for either possiblity.
"anyone who has followed this should know ..."
This is belittling.
You are also a bully.
Your posts should be deleted and you should be banned from posting.
Oh puhleaze! It is true that anyone who follows the school district issues should know exactly when they've said they'll begin the search again for a supt and there's nothing whatesoever belittling about it. If you were truly concerned about it being in 2010 instead of 2009 (as they've been saying for awhile now), you could and should have used the phone instead of the computer and sought your answer directly from the district. Instead you posted a rhetorical question, then followed it with a nasty comment related to the snow days and calender. If you don't like people pointing out the obvious don't post.
Mrs. Thiel, can you please explain something? Mrs. Monte keeps saying teachers can negotiate their own contracts outside of the union. Since you've actually served on the board, your husband's a union dues-paying teacher and she's proven herself wrong and contradictory so much in the past, do you have any idea why a teacher would want to negotiate a contract without the benefit of the union, especially when they're still having to pay union dues anyway? This makes no sense to me. But then again, I have to consider the source.
Everything is negotiable, including teacher contracts. Salary is just one of the areas that is open for negotiation and the union does not (or will not) negotiate for individual members. The most common time for a teacher to do individual negotiation is upon entry to the district or becoming a perm. employee from a temp. They will negotiate salary, length, vacation, sick time, etc.
The union works on negotiations for the whole.
Also, the union will not participate in extra curricular activity salaries. Those would also be negotiated depending on the situation and extent of involvment.
How dare that BOE causing all this nasty snow
I for one applaud the superintendent for cancelling school during the times. One time I could have seen (for the 1st snow) however, realize my children walk to school and it is a short distance.
The whole issue for me is why not build in a calendar. This board seems to lack the common sense and just can't seem to put their collective heads together to move us forward. Its been what, almost 4 year since the start of the long-range plan and still no substance.
The PMP report has an inch of dust on it. The Sodexho CCAP report is 5 years old.
This board must have smart spouses because opposites attract!
To the anonymous that keeps repeating the statement that they won't vote for anyone that votes "no";
It is very difficult to ever vote yes when there is no compromise from the majority. Many times there were suggestions to compromise from the minority that was rejected. The calendar is one very major issue that was shot down by the majority.
Unity, compromise, and cooperation is what the district needs. This referendum depends on it.
Anonymous 2:59pm asked "Mrs. Thiel, can you please explain something? Mrs. Monte keeps saying teachers can negotiate their own contracts outside of the union."
and Anonymous 3:18pm posted "The most common time for a teacher to do individual negotiation is upon entry to the district or becoming a perm. employee from a temp. They will negotiate salary, length, vacation, sick time, etc.
The union works on negotiations for the whole.
Also, the union will not participate in extra curricular activity salaries. Those would also be negotiated depending on the situation and extent of involvment."
To the first Anonymous I find it very hard to believe that the district would be willing to "negotiate" with individual teachers it would be too time consuming and they already have a set salary schedule so why deviate. I say that with one caveat. If the position being filled is a very difficult one to fill -- School Psychologist, Chemistry or Physics or Advanced Math, Technology... there may be some negotiation when first coming into the district as to where you are placed on the Salary Schedule but that is about it. For Elementary/Middle School Teachers and High School teachers in areas besides those mentioned above you aren't going to be negotiating anything.
Just because you know how one type of union works, you can't extrapolate that info. to all unions and you can't even take what one school district does and assume all others do the same.
I feel confident saying the Oshkosh school district will not be negotiating contracts with individual teachers... and what sense would it make to do so? If Mrs. Monte thinks the union asks for too much, is she suggesting that teachers negotiate a contract that would pay them less than what the union negotiated? Does that make any sense to anyone?
I would like to point out ONE more time: Teachers have NOT been receiving a 4.7% PAY increase... let's try that again... Oshkosh Teachers have NOT received a 4.7% PAY increase. The 4.7% is total package and most years the majority of the increase goes to health insurance leaving very little and in some cases no raise. In fact about 5 years ago many teachers saw an actual DECREASE in pay because of the cost of Health Insurance. If you are going to argue, at least be aware of the facts.
That's the last that will be posted on the subject of Teachers' compensation, it is not part of the referendum (which is what this thread is supposed to be about) and I'm really tired of the same old, uniformed arguments. Go to the NW or Monte's blog to post on that, I'll be deleting any further posts on teachers pay/ union etc.
Back to the referendum, I see that Oaklawn parents have started a vote "Yes" committee... now if they all wanted that school built on the current site, why would they set up a committee to get the referendum question to pass? Could it be that the majority of Oaklawn families perfer the Ryf Road location? Would those board members and candidates opposed to the Ryf Road site go against what the families want? I would also like to know, if this referendum passes, will board members try to block the new school?
I think we have beaten the "site" of a new Oaklawn/Sunset school to death. So what about the other 2 questions, is there anyone out there that supports either of those questions (of course I know there are plenty of people that support them even referendum that fail have thousands of people voting yes -- I guess the real question is are there any posters who support questions 2 and/or 3?
The new school really hasn't been beaten to death and it is a very important component for many reasons. I think that the new school portion of the referendum is enough to prove to me that this BOE has no concept of money management and is not acting in the best interest of the entire district. That is precisely why I will vote against all three questions.
Spoken like a true naysayer. You don't like the establishment (ie: incumbents) so you'll make piss poor decisions that ultimately affect the kids. Good for you.
I was at Wendts tonight. Saw a ton of Oshkosh people there I knew. The issue of snow days and referendum came up. All I can say is the 15 or so people in our waiting que had no good things to say about the UNION. No all teachers follow in the union footsteps. The same group (some actually have kids in the schools) were almost completely against any referenda question which would require them to pay more taxes. The common thought was there was a lot of fat to be cut from the system.
Thought you'd like to know.
"Spoken like a true naysayer. You don't like the establishment (ie: incumbents) so you'll make piss poor decisions that ultimately affect the kids. Good for you."
Hey, this BOE majority has had their way and they have run roughshad (sp?) over the minority and there has been very little by the way of compromise. Like so many others, I have had it with them. I have had it with you and your friends calling those that disagree with you naysayers. It is simply just name calling and the fact that you refuse to bring anything of value to the conversation only shows how weak your positions are.
Have a good night.
Regarding the referendum questions:
I think it's very possible that people don't understand what exactly can/will be added to their tax bill if any or all ref. questions should pass.
I don't know how to determine that myself, and because there hasn't been recent information on how to calculate what will come out of pocket, people might think that it's some huge, unmanageable amount when it could be less than everyone thinks.
Also, it's hard to know where to get your information regarding how much has been saved,spent, reserved, etc. to know our record on "responsible" maintenance spending. Many in the community, no matter how closely you follow the news, don't really understand what each fund stands for within our budget.
I think it's great that Scott Altmann is putting together a community group to examine budgeting issues. Information may lead to understanding the complex issues and help people feel better about where their dollars are going. The Board talks about wanting "transparency" in some of their decision making processes. This might be the first step.
My kids love their schools, we love the teachers and the quality of education we're receiving here, so we're glad we chose this community. We're not pleased with the physical learning environment, however, and it truly does affect the overall quality of the educational experience.
"...almost completely against any referenda question which would require them to pay more taxes."
Oh but they would support referenda questions as long as it didn't cost them anything? Now how ridiculous is that?
As for "a lot of fat to be cut from the system." It would be quite helpful if you would tell us exactly where the fat is an what the dollar amount saved would be. It is so easy to say there is plenty of "fat" but it seems the devil is in the details.
As for "a lot of fat to be cut from the system." It would be quite helpful if you would tell us exactly where the fat is an what the dollar amount saved would be. It is so easy to say there is plenty of "fat" but it seems the devil is in the details.
CSS Curriculum Support Specialists make up about 1 million in fat that I would cut.
SAGE makes up quite a bit more fat that should be cut. We should eliminate SAGE in favor of a few specialists and targetted help for those students that need it. There are students at non-sage schools that need help and there are students at sage schools that are doing just fine.
ZERO BASED BUDGETING
PERFORMANCE BASED TEACHER REVIEWS
"Oh but they would support referenda questions as long as it didn't cost them anything? Now how ridiculous is that? "
Nobody said that. You read something one way and understood it a different way. You are ridiculous.
There IS fat to be cut from the system. All we need is a finance person and a fiscal conservative to take a scalpel to the budget.
I think it is funny that a few people having a few cocktails while waiting for dinner can figure that out and you and your friends on the BOE can't.
"SAGE makes up quite a bit more fat that should be cut."
Now had you included the dollars saved you would know that SAGE is a program that pays the district about $2500 for every student that qualifies for Free or Reduced lunch and requires 4 components, rigorous curriculum, lighted school houses, staff development and class sizes of 15 or less.
I'm pretty sure from the reports I've heard, eliminating SAGE will not save the district any money since the dollars received from the state covers the extra staffing. If you know differently, please provide the DOLLAR AMOUNT that would be saved.
If SAGE funding covers the cost, why do schools ask for SAGE funding to be INCREASED every year in their report to DPI stating that the current funding levels DO NOT cover the ever inreasing costs in terms of space and teachers?
As for the referendum, why should anyone give more money than we currently do when there is nothing about changing the way they spend it and no accountability for what they expect to get?
Sounds a lot like the Big-Three Bailout.
I'll vote for MM and BS who have been consistant with their fiscal conservative arguments and ideas. Just because Thiel hasn't heard of teachers negotiating their own contracts does not mean it isn't/cannot/should not be considered. WEAC is a bunch of bullies and our poor teachers are the ones who take the brunt of the abuse. I bet Thiel didn't know that there are districts in WI that are not part of WEAC either.
This referendum will fail.
Yeah 10:30 - a finance person like Todd Gray, huh? We heard some of the people like Dan Becker, Ben Schneider, and Michelle Monte singing his praises and quite emphatically stating he should be our next super. Funny how he left the budget in such a state that some of the maintenance had to be cut from the budget in order to pass it. It'd be interesting to see what the people in Waukesha think about this anointed saint.
Funny you should mention Waukesha. Only six months ago the district was threatening to close 5 schools. And 8 years ago the district was on the verge of bankruptcy. There are plenty of other districts around the state which are in serious financial trouble. And yet, we have a bunch of naysayers and negative nellies ehre who only can point their stubby little fingers at our BOE and bitch about what a horrible job they do. It couldn't possibly be that things continue to go up and revenues to districts keep getting reduced, could it? Not in their negatively twisted minds.
Simply put, I will be voting for any and all candidates who are fiscal conservatives. I will not at this point support the BOE referena questions either.
I think that the point is that being an advocate for more responsible spending actually equates to being an advocate for education.
Some have accused Schneider, McHugh, Becker and Pat K. as being naysayers, when the truth is that they were simply advocates of responsible spending AND education.
I don't want to go so far as to say that teachers are being greedy. I'd say that they are nearly all really great people that simply let the union do the dirty work for them. I really refuse to blame teachers in general. There's no point in it.
"I don't want to go so far as to say that teachers are being greedy. I'd say that they are nearly all really great people that simply let the union do the dirty work for them."
Does the anonymous who wrote this drivel even know what they're talking about? Great people, do dirty work for them...What an interesting comment. More talking about both sides of their mouth, just like some of our candidates for the BOE.
Anonymous 1:12 wrote: "Just because Thiel hasn't heard of teachers negotiating their own contracts does not mean it isn't/cannot/should not be considered."
OK really everyone, just how many teachers do you think are going to line up and negotiate themselves a pay cut? And why in the world would the district want to spend time negotiating individual contracts... makes no sense at all.
Oh and yes Anon. I know that Menasha is part of the AFT not WEAC what exactly is your point?
Bad things happen when good people stand by and do nothing.
By the same token I question the true goodness of those who would stand by and do nothing. (such as those who already have said, without hearing any of the talking points on the referenda, that they will vote no.)
You have an untrustworthy BOE toblame for that.
What fools some of these posters be. Before they even hear the referenda issues they're saying they'll vote no. Sounds like they follow the Dan Becker, Ben Schneider, Michelle Monte creedo. Let's hope these people never serve on a jury. They'll convict before they hear the evidence.
Ms. Theil clearly exhibits a pro union bias. That in itself is enough reason to question her motives, although I do believe her husband is a teacher, so she always has had a vested interest in expanding wages and benefits to teachers.
If I could poll every voter I could guarantee that the majority of the voters that will be voting for Traska and Kavanaugh will be related to the teachers union in some way. That is why I am really hoping for a large voter turn out.
Organized labor is designed to protect the worst performing workers in the union, to the detriment of the best. Thus, the best subsidize the pay of the worst. Seems like something I wouldn't want to be part of. I know plenty of excellent workers in the trade unions and wonder why they would agree to this redistribution concept.
I would like someone who has made the decision to do this explain to me why. Maybe there is something I am missing.
Who says the teachers would get a cut or would consider negotiating a cut. Why not a freeze?
8:15 you are completely out of your skull if you believe everyone who votes for the incumbents is related to the teachers union in some way. I'm not related to them in any way whatsoever and I plan to vote for them. You make much to do about teachers wages and benefits. Wages and benefits make up the largest part of any organizational budget. I would also say that because there are so many cheapskates in Oshkosh the elected people have operated frugally for many years. THat's why we have school buildings and roads in such disrepair. You've been living cheaply for a lot of years and now it's time to pay for your frugalness. And if you think we're alone in this mess, grow up and open your eyes and you'll see it's happening all over the country. So you can stop flaming about the school board anyday now.
I never said everybody. You should re-read my 8:15 post.
The fact that other districts are in rough shape is no excuse for our district.
A 117,000,000 budget this year does not constitute as frugal in my opinion. There is waste and it should be found.
Everything would be easy if our funds were unlimited. They are not, and the BOE must be held accountable for overspending.
Yes, 7:11, it is true, you said the "majority" and not "everyone." Even at that, you are making a huge statement based on nothing more than pure conjecture, personal belief, and wishful thinking. That is irresponsible. But if that's all that's needed as a basis for making such statements, so be it. So if someone else comes along and says they believe differently, does that cancel out your statement? I believe so. Thank you for sharing such sharp insight and accurate voter analysis. CSPAN surely needed you during our last presidnetial campaign and election.
10:54....keep spinning!
11:42...keep dodging the challenge to defend your comment with something intelligent.
Fo future reference, you could just post links to the article.
Its about the money and that is not necessarily a bad or evil thing. As a tax payer what is disappointing is that the board of education which has always had a fair share of hard line public education advocates and the teacher's union cannot find any common ground to say the hell with the contract we gotta fix this now. These are two entitys on the same side of the table dividing up 100 million plus tax payer dollars and it is too big an inconvenience to expect common sense to be considered. Telling us tax payers that it is "all about the children" rings pretty hollow right now.
Two entities on the same side of the table or the fox guarding the hen house. However you want to put it you are correct. It is all about the money.
Going with the flow on this BOE is the easiest thing in the world to do. We need board members that aren't afraid to dig in, brace their heals and fight the flow when it is the right thing to do.
What is the register of deeds about?
Is it referencing trying to find out how much banks have reported a persons mortgage to be and see if they are responsible while they are preaching the district zero based or whatever budgets.
This district needs better budgeting, but they also need a referendum to get caught up on deferred maintenance and replace the northside school. Oaklawn in a bad shape and their is no money for maintenance. Pretty simple!
"This district needs better budgeting, but they also need a referendum to get caught up on deferred maintenance and replace the northside school. Oaklawn in a bad shape and their is no money for maintenance. Pretty simple!"
I agree, but I do not trust this administration and this BOE to improve their budgetting and I do not believe that a new school is the answer to Replacing Oaklawn.
I am in favor of the best OASD we can achieve, I just firmly and strongly believe that we need better leadership.
"This district needs better budgeting, but they also need a referendum to get caught up on deferred maintenance and replace the northside school. Oaklawn in a bad shape and their is no money for maintenance. Pretty simple!"
I agree, but I do not trust this administration and this BOE to improve their budgetting and I do not believe that a new school is the answer to Replacing Oaklawn.
So you don't trust the Boe and administration but you trust a board candidate who is in debt up to her eyeballs to advise us on how to get us out of this mess?
We need a referendum and a new northside school. This board's hand are tied and have done a fine job. Don't be so negativ.
Michelle "Wantobe" Monte has always been a hypocrite and it's nice to see others are starting to see that. She changes her position on things to fit the mood de jeur and the crowd she's with. If you don't believe that just take a look at the different things she's said during the last 4 years. Back and forth, back and forth, the Monte pendulum swings.
Anonymous said, "The district is bare bones."
Impossible.
Even with the QEO 3.8% is way more than most people are getting. In fact more are losing jobs so even if you JUST keep your job these days you're lucky so 3.8% is WAY more than "bare bones"!!
The reason we have no money for school maintenance is that we reallocated money from other parts of the budget to pay for additional wage and benefit enhancements to administrators and teachers. We "robbed Pete to pay Paul"
We have to get a much better handle on negotiating contracts. Our team simply "sucks" and they think taxpayers are an endless source of more money.
Now that we have no money left for maintenance, they want a referendum to put their hands deeper into the taxpayers pockets.
Stop the insanity!
We need a drastic change to the make-up of the BOE!
WE DO NOT NEED A NEW ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!
Atendance is declining and the PMP report was very clear that we should use what we have.
I bet you didn't complain about those wages and benefits or turn them down when you worked in public sector though, did you? Pretty hypocritical to me. We have a city council member who used to be on the school board who whines about wages and bennies now, but when he was feeding at the public trough himself, it was just fine. Now we've got a school board candidate who complains about salaries and benefits for union members whilst her husband is also a union member feeding himself, her and their kids at the public trough. People like this make me want to puke.
From the Obama White House:
"The pay freeze, first reported by The Associated Press, would hold salaries at their current levels for the roughly 100 White House employees who make over $100,000 a year. "Families are tightening their belts, and so should Washington," said the new president, taking office amid startlingly bad economic times that many fear will grow worse."
Gee, maybe the administration could do this as well! After all, if it's good enough for the White House, why not apply it to school districts? I'm suggesting a paradigm shift. There's nothing sacred about schools, teachers, and administrators. If it's good enough for the White House staff, it should be acceptable for our liberal teachers and school administrators.
You make great points, 4:22. I might also add that Dan Becker is married to a teacher and getting great benefits and enjoying that nice salary, as is Ben Schneider II. But they complain about the others who are receiving the same. More "Do as I want, not as I do-ers." The depth of their hypocrisy is second to none.
Seems to me, when your wife gets increases and you try to restrict the increases from a neighboring district (not cut the pay)that-that position is cutting the hand that feeds you since the district uses comparables to settle contracts. Pretty principaled if you ask me. Seems to be a pretty courageous position to take. How many people put the needs of the taxpayers ahead of their needs?
Sad thing, the district needs to have a "carry over" provision in certain budgets because they are afraid these spenders will waste money if they don't. That's right, grown adults that are the gatekeepers for our dollars need an incentive to be responsible. What ever happened to responsibility, putting others needs first, and most importantly, putting the needs of the children before the wants of the adults.
Maybe that is why some board members in the past felt that 3.8% increases are reasonable vs. the 4.7% settlements, even though they benefit from higher pay raises by their wives? The money saved could have flowed to fund to hire more reading specialists, save our neighborhood schools and generally children's programs can be funded so! Whatever happened to "it's about Oshkosh students"?
Two sides to every position and I can tell you, a board member whose wife is a teacher doesn't have a personal gain by not supporting the packages that have proved to be unaffordable. The gain is to the children who get more dollars (that would otherwise be spent on salary/bene's) for the programs.
Remembers when a few years ago when the OTHER board members cut the teen pregnacy program to pay for increases?? Is that an "advocate" for children?
Does that tell you the board doesn't care about our most vulernable of students?
Face it, the incumbents have voted us to the situation we are in and the saying goes "politicians spend much time campaign against the problems they created"! Yes, they created these problems (look at voting records) and now we should give them more money to solve? Seems unreasonable to me!
It most certainly is nobel to have a spouse as a teacher and still advocate lower raises. That constitutes as doing the right thing and directing money away from yourself and towards the children.
Thank you Dan Becker and ben Schneider.
Becker owns his own business. It only makes sense he would use public sector benefits rather than paying for a plan through his business. To address the other comments about lowering wages in one district to ultimately affect your own pocket book, that's just a lot of hooey. Neither Becker or Schneider have been successful in getting things lowered and the district has lost in arbitration in the past. They knew they'd be in the minority so had nothing to lose by pushing for something to be taken away. It's called pandering to voters. We've seen that pretty often from a certain mayor wannabe too. Fortunately that approach has not worked with the majority of voters in the past and those candidates have not been elected.
Gotta love a daydreamer.
While reading these posts I had to ask myself "I wonder how many of these posters have 4 yr degrees?"
A $40 to $70,000.00 per year salary is nothing for an employee with 10 yrs of experience and possibly a Master Degree or even a Doctorate.
If you are a factory worker how much do you think the plant engineer pulls down, or the production manager?
You cannot compare factory pay with professional salaries.
You cut teacher pay and SMART people will stop becoming teachers,. Think about it instead of jumping on a wagon and ranting about it.
Well if the public stops paying the wages of teachers, those of you with young children and jobs, might want to think about what your costs will be to provide all day care for them to age 9 or 10 or at whatever age you would be comfortable leaving them home alone to "school" themselves. I guarantee it will be more than you pay in school taxes.
I can't believe just how dumb people are to say the money saved will be used for the children... the most important part of a child's education is their teacher and if you want to attract, and retain the best, you better have a competitive salary.
This basically says it all.......
The days of the underpaid, under-appreciated local teacher are over. It is a well-paying profession ... and it should be. But it must also become more sensitive and realistic. This time of economic stress shoves many issues to the front. If unions are savvy they’ll recognize the growing disenchantment and take proactive measures to soothe the tax base and to set a solid path for the future of their profession. Better for them to be the architects of change than to have it imposed by people who don't actually understand the nuances of the job and the effort it requires.
Salary schedules are coming under scrutiny ... and so are the resulting pensions that are financed by taxpayer funds in addition to salaries. To ignore these realities is a danger for the profession. Teachers need to realize that they are paid by public funding ... and, given a perfect storm ... that could dry up very quickly.
Question to the supporters of the board majority:
Do you feel they have a sense of responsibility for the mess we are in because of their votes?
After all, they have a record budget and they also have a record amount of deferred maintenance?
Do you feel they have a sense of responsibility for the school calendar?
After all, Dennis Kavanaugh helped design the calendar and Wayne Traska as well as others voted in favor and we are now dealing with their lack of attention to detail because they didn't have a PLAN B for snow/cold days!
Just like they don't have a long-range plan or a PLAN B should the referendum fail.
They put all their chips in a future referendum when they began deferring maintenance and we have schools that have buckets to catch rain. Do you think their is a bucket in the superintendent's office to catch rain? Do you think they would ever allow that to occur? Do you think central office's bathroom fixtures work? Our school had to use PTO money to fix some of our fixtures!
Does this board have any responsibility or are WE going to continue to vote for this?
Thanks to 8:38 for pointing out what some have been saying for a long time. That being that it's not just us having problems so you can stop all the bitching about our BOE. They may not be perfect but they're hardly as bad as some would make them out to be.
If it's good enough for the White House staff, it should be acceptable for our liberal teachers and school administrators.
There are no teachers making over $100,000 per year in the Oshkosh District.
Anonymous said...
Thanks to 8:38 for pointing out what some have been saying for a long time. That being that it's not just us having problems so you can stop all the bitching about our BOE. They may not be perfect but they're hardly as bad as some would make them out to be.
Saturday, January 24, 2009 4:54:00 PM CST
The above post pretty much sums it up.
People still defending the members that lead us to this mess and are continuing the lead us further down the road of no return.
Sad thing is, when things were great, the board was deferring maintenance to get by. Now things are horrible, we are running out of money, and they want us to give them another term. Yes, I am angry because my children deserve better. And I demand better representation. That is why April 7th can not come fast enough for myself, family and for the community.
The past 7-8 years, all but one year, the Board has been lead by Dennis Kavanaugh, Tom Mcdermott, Karen Bowen, Amy Weinshime. AND THEY HAVE been in the majority vote. And Wayne Traska has joined their destructive cause during his 3 year term he's done nothing but defer maintenance. That's not bitc*ing, that is those are facts. And yes, I am not a happy camper on all this.
Don't get me started on this joke of a calendar and no snow days built in!
Get your absentee ballots folks--as soon as they are available that is!
Previous poster hit the nail on the head. Pretty difficult to pin this on others when they controlled the board and controlled the votes.
It would be more convincing for the Republicans to blame the Democrats for what we are experiencing now. Blaming the past years of failures on Bill Clinton just doesn't fly.
Problem is this board has taken their eye off the 8 ball and have no one to blame but themselves. I predict voters will vote for change on April 7th and send Dennis and Wayne packing or they will be fighting for the third seat.
Pretty hard to sell the community on doing a good job when you support everything that got us here!
This whole board is pretty disappointing as I supported several of them in the past.
And Teresa, you need to stop being so negative and start being fair. To blame a past board member that is as dedicated to doing what is right as any for the problems the current board has create for themselves is like George Bush blaming Herb Kohl for his failed policies! (Senator Kohl was in the minority for all but 6 years of Bush's term)
Sorry said former board member did nothing to increase maintenance spending, he offered no amendments or alternative budgets, just voted no and pointed fingers. I think it would be quite interesting to see exactly where Mr. Schneider or Ms. Monte will find $3M in the operating budget for maintenance each year (since that is the constant criticism about the board majority. Is this community really ready for $3M in program cuts... and oh, that won't take care of all deferred projects, I don't know the exact figure but it will be millions more. I hope all of you clamoring for the fully funded maintenance budget has some idea of just what that will look like...imagine our schools with "just the basics" good-bye
art, good-bye music (Mr. Schneider has publicly stated a number of times these
classes are not priorities) hello classes of 30+. Yeah, if this community is foolish enough to vote in Mr.Schneider or MMs. Monte that's what you can expect either that or they will quickly discover they can't find the full funding for maintenance they promised. Glad my children are almost out of the district.
Another Teresa Thiel lie:
he offered no amendments or alternative budgets,
Schneider annually attempted for the board to adopt a zero based budget which would have by virtue of the process, directed money into maintenance as it is a priority item. Board said no to this just like they said no to his common sense calendar alternative.
Teresa, you see, there is support for those that oppose your failed policies and bad decisions. There is support for alternatives to the more of the same board majority candidates.
Just because the board and Administration was too lazy doesn't mean it shouldn't have been done.
What you will see next is the board tomorrow will vote to give all administrators a 1 or 2 year contract and then, a few months later, this board will say "their is nothing that can be done" to solve the $ 4,000,000 deficit but layoff teachers.
Another one of Teresa lies caught!
Class dismissed.
Hey Teresa, why is it you keep supporting those that caused all of this mess?
Looks like Schneider was right.
Last month, he cautioned the board and said DON'T offer 2 year contracts to the Adminstration because you will need flexibility to deal with the deficit you created.
And what do they do, offer contracts to just about ALL administrators.
And now, 40 classroom teachers are on the layoff list and the Northwestern reports, "not much board can do aside from as Administration is under contracts".
Thanks Wayne Traska and Dennis Kavanaugh for once again, being too dumb to listen to someone smart than you?
This was posted in early Feb;
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What you will see next is the board tomorrow will vote to give all administrators a 1 or 2 year contract and then, a few months later, this board will say "their is nothing that can be done" to solve the $ 4,000,000 deficit but layoff teachers.
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Will voters be remembering this on April 7th???????
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