Wednesday, May 30, 2007

Is it appropriate for school board members to deny children an education?

I was talking to someone about the last school board meeting and this person made a comment that really got me thinking. The comment "Why would you want to be on the school board if you are going to deny children an education?" The person was referencing the "no" vote by 2 board members to provide 4K education to Oshkosh children. For almost 10 years the Oshkosh district has had a 4K program for English Language Learners (ELL) students and the state informed Oshkosh that in order to receive state aide for that program the district needed to have a "universal access" 4K program. Meaning that 4K had to be available for all district children, not just targeted to certain groups. If the district did not move to universal access 4K they would not be able to have a 4K ELL program either because there is no money in the budget to fully fund such a program. I hadn't really thought about the fact that voting against 4K was denying children an education but that is what would have happened. Those same board members then voted against providing summer school programs for students because they believe that the pay for summer school teachers is too high, but that is something that is bargained with the union and cannot be changed unilaterally. It does seem strange that school board members would vote against providing programs that are not only needed by students but, in the case of 4K ,wanted by 85% of parents surveyed.

There is a multitude of research by not just educators but also economists that show that 4K is not only beneficial for children (with univeral 4K considered more beneficial for children in need than targeted programs) it has a huge return on investment for governmental units. Yet these board members still voted against 4K basically denying children an education. I just don't see how it can be justified that the best interest of the children were served by those "NO" votes.

47 comments:

Anonymous said...

I think the question is... "where do we draw the line?" Milwaukee schools offer 3K. Should we offer this too? I would imagine that we could find the most appropriate activities for a two year old that would best get a kid ready for 3K... maybe we'll need a 2K program then. While I agree 4K might help some kids, we simply do not have all the money in the world to implement every program that comes along. Moreover, here in Oshkosh, we have a large number of low income households. Mr. Schneider was correct in pointing out that while the money may not come directly from the district's tax levy, it will come from somewhere. At my age, with my fixed income, I would like to see a little more evidence that a study that proclaims that 40% of all of the participants will be arrested 5+ times before the age of 40. If you read the results carefully, they warn about generalizing the results for other demographics. I'm not clear Oshkosh fits.

The one thing that doesn't surprise me here though is that you, Ms. Thiel, would use this as an opportunity to bash these Board members. Of coarse, they are on the board, you are not! I'm guessing there is a reason why.

Anonymous said...

Maybe for the same reason Mrs. Monte likes to bash the school board and administration. There's a reason why she's not on the board either. At least Mrs. Thiel has served on the board.

Anonymous said...

These fanatics who think criticism of a board member's job performance is bashing them need to get a grip on reality. By the by, Ms. Thiel never mentioned any board members by name...anonymous did...so it's even less bashing than these thin-skinned babies would have us believe. Hmmm.....

Anonymous said...

I agree that SOME children can benefit from 4K. However, I also believe that children should be allowed to be children while they still can. Childhoos is too chort to be pushed into school just to benefit a few with other needs that could be serviced by Head Start, Birth to Three, and other community resources. Talk about duplicating services. Isn't that why other worthwhile programs for older students have been cut?

As for summer school, I also agree to a point. If those same teachers making $50+ per hour were teaching core curriculum, I would happily support them. However, the core teachers are making about half that. Elective teachers and enrichment teachers are making the big bucks and I just don't see that as important to merit getting paid more. I think the summer school teachers should get paid based on the importance of their charge. Core gets higher and extras get less. We should be promoting the basics and not fantastically rewarding the fun stuff to the detriment of the important stuff.

As Mrs. Thiel was on the BOE, she should know that a Board member does not just vote for a program for a few students, they must vote with the entire district in mind. They must also keep the budget in mind. There are more factors than Mrs. Thiel is insinuating. Maybe it is her narrow view of things and short-sightedness that kept her off the BOE.

Anonymous said...

When was the last time Mrs. Monte bashed anyone? I think Mrs. Thiel has cornered that market in the last couple of months.

Anonymous said...

Hmm, let's see...

Take a look at almost anything she posts and you'll find her own unique style of bashing. Funny thing is, people are fed up with the Monte negativity and cutthroat musings. Mrs. Monte and her hubby Kent have become all but irrelevant since they lost the election. Now Kent is even taking a blogging hiatus. Pity he couldn't do it without singing the blues, playing the poor me's, and taking a swipe at posters and other blogs in the same post. So much for not "bashing" anyone.

Teresa Thiel said...

Anon. 5:55am -- From your post it appears that you don't understand the concept of "universal access" that means everyone has the chance to go to 4K no one is REQUIRED to send their children, that is a parent's choice. The fact is the state does not allow a district to only have "targeted 4K" anymore than they allow "targeted 5K". As far as the money coming from "somewhere" so you would rather your tax dollars go to providing 4K in say Eau Claire or Ripon than in Oshkosh. I certainly don't see the logic in that.

As Mrs. Thiel stated, how is it in the best interest of children to deny them an education?

As for your statement "I would like to see a little more evidence that a study that proclaims that 40% of all of the participants will be arrested 5+ times before the age of 40." That is not what the study said at all. It showed that in following students who were in the High/Scope Perry Pre-school program into adulthood and comparing them with students who did not participate in the pre-school program found that:

"The group who received high-quality early education had significantly fewer arrests than the non-program group (36% vs. 55% arrested five times or more)" This is not a "prediction" it is statistics on what actually happened and while it is not a positive that 36% of children who participated in the program later were arrested 5 or more times as adults, of the control group who received NO preschool 55% were arrested 5 or more times, so clearly fewer preschool participants got into trouble with the law as adults. I see this 19 percentage point reduction for preschool participants as a positive.

Anonymous said...

One cannot argue that a 19% reduction is positive. However, suppose that here in Oshkosh only 7% of people are arrested 5+ times by the age of 40. Now you couldn't possibly reduce that number by 19%. Given the economic impact quoted in this research primarily comes from this reduction in arrests and related costs to society, I wonder how much if anything we can save here as opposed to the ghetto.

One could argue that each and every one of us is only responsible for our own actions. We can control Oshkosh. Just because other districts around the state waste money on certain programs, doesn't give Oshkosh an excuse to spend without assessing the impact to our kids.

I agree that some kids probably need a program similar to this. These programs are offered through other means though. It is unfortunate that the state pidgeon-holes us into this situation. But it is unfair to suggest that the board members don't want to educate children because they voted no on this issue. The fact is that there are a large number of programs that OASD implements that doesn't get enough funding. To me it seems logical for a board member to not start something new, when there is such need. Maybe we could expand on our special education programs, maybe we could provide more staffing for our gifted students. Rather than expanding the number served, I think we should focus our efforts on the kids already served.

Teresa Thiel said...

Anonymous said "However, suppose that here in Oshkosh only 7% of people are arrested 5+ times by the age of 40. Now you couldn't possibly reduce that number by 19%."

You don't know what that rate is for Oshkosh now do you? But let us take your figure of 7% that would be 700 of our 10,000 students, say preschool reduced it to 1% that would keep 600 people from being arrested 5+ times... you don't need to be an economist to see the savings to society and the "arrest" records were NOT the only or even the primary factor in the economic impact of quality pre-school programs. There were many other factors indicated including, higher paying jobs, more likely to have a job etc.

If one more board member had voted no (thankfully Mr. McDermott, based on the research he was given, changed his mind and voted for the 4K program) the children would not have been served and in effect denied an education. I ask again, how can that be in the best interest of our students?

Anonymous said...

But they WOULDN'T be denied an education. They just wouldn't get it for free.

There are MANY opportunities here in Oshkosh that provide "4k" or pre-school education. In some cases they do it for less depending on the economic status of the family. Don't be fooled into thinking that this is an end all of education. How a child is educated from age 5-18 is more influential to those arrest numbers as 4k EVER could be. One year isn't as critical as some believe.

Here should be a HUGE factor in whether or not this program should have been approved or not;
The approval comes on the heels of a budget reconciliation that removed programs that are critical to arrest numbers- for example- Journeys, VIP, and teen parenting.

Why should we support a 4k when we can't support the programs named above??

Teresa Thiel said...

Anon said "...budget reconciliation that removed programs that are critical to arrest numbers- for example- Journeys, VIP, and teen parenting."
I would have to ask and where is your evidence that those programs were "working" and were the best programs for the money?


As for the "cost" of 4K... Once the 4K program is in place for 3 years (because of the way the state funds schools) it pays for itself, the state aid offsets the costs of the program and yes the funds come from state taxpayers but as I asked before... would you rather your state tax dollars fund 4K in Oshkosh or in Eau Clarie, since the state funds 4K where ever it is located?

As for your comment "Don't be fooled into thinking that this is an end all of education. How a child is educated from age 5-18 is more influential to those arrest numbers as 4k EVER could be. One year isn't as critical as some believe."

I would ask -- based on what? Your say so? Here is a summary from the High/Scope Project"

{This study—perhaps the most well-known of all High/Scope research efforts—examines the lives of 123 African Americans born in poverty and at high risk of failing in school. From 1962–1967, at ages 3 and 4, the subjects were randomly divided into a program group that received a high-quality preschool program based on High/Scope's participatory learning approach and a comparison group who received no preschool program. In the study's most recent phase, 97% of the study participants still living were interviewed at age 40. Additional data were gathered from the subjects' school, social services, and arrest records. The study found that adults at age 40 who had the preschool program had higher earnings, were more likely to hold a job, had committed fewer crimes, and were more likely to have graduated from high school than adults who did not have preschool.}

The determining factor here was whether the students had preschool or not, all other factors were relatively equal among the two groups since the students were randomly assigned.

Anonymous said...

Kent does have one thing right though 5:55: he won't be missed. This might be the only time I've ever agreed with him.

Anonymous said...

Mrs. Thiel, claiming that we are paying for Eau Claire's 4K is a slight misstatement. Through equalized aide, in theory, districts get their fair share of state tax dollars. A district pays in X dollars and gets back Y dollars. So, it is possible that Eau Claire pays in more than we do, yet we get more than they do. I'll say again, it is possible. It is also possible for us to pay in more than they, and they get more than we. That is regardless of programs offered by the districts. For instance, Manitowoc Public schools pay into the National hot lunch program, but did not, until recently, provide hot lunch. They paid for our hot lunch program. Shall we offer them a 30+ year refund?

Using arrest records as proof of the need for 4K is trying to prove causation where there is barely a correlation. Again, more misinformation. If you want that one to fly, you need to examine more numbers and not just one very narrow study. That brings me to another point. The arrest information was from a very narrow study in one small location that has not and probably cannot be replicated therefore questionable as evidence of anything.

However, it is indesputable that students who graduate high school are less likely to end up on welfare or in prison yet OASD has eliminated virtually every program designed to keep at-risk kids in school. If those programs weren't working, the district administration would not have worked so hard to prove that community resources existed and guidance would help those students in place of the programs.

Do you, Mrs. Thiel have any studies from this millenium or are you saying education has not changed since the 1960s? What was, is no longer and no longer applicable. Anyone who has studied education to include African American history should know that a lot has changed in education since the Civil Rights Movement and Affirmative Action. Predicting what today's 3 or 4 year old will be like forty years from now is vastly different. We all drink from da same fount'ns na, Missa Thiel.

Teresa Thiel said...

Bu'wheat said "Again, more misinformation. If you want that one to fly, you need to examine more numbers and not just one very narrow study. That brings me to another point. The arrest information was from a very narrow study in one small location that has not and probably cannot be replicated therefore questionable as evidence of anything."

While not an exact replica of the High/Scope project the following is a similar study which looked at students from 1985-1999.

*Note this study was published in the Journal of the American MEDICAL Association --- they have pretty stringent requirements for reports to be published in their Journal.

{A study reported in the Journal of the American Medical Association tracked 1,500 disadvantaged minority children in Chicago for 16 years. About two- thirds of the children participated in a comprehensive preschool program where standards, curriculum and assessment were aligned with kindergarten through third grade.

Called Child-Parent Centers, these programs were part of the Chicago Public School system. The study found that CPC participants were almost 30% more likely to complete high school than a comparison group of equally disadvantaged children.

Forty percent fewer CPC participants were held back in school or placed in special education, and CPC participants had 41% fewer arrests for violent crime. The study shows that the program can generate long lasting results and benefits.

CPC is a center-based, pre-school and early intervention program that offers comprehensive family-support services as well as educational-support services. The program has served over 100,000 families in high-poverty neighborhoods in the Chicago area since 1967. It is one of the earliest educational programs created after the introduction of Title I in 1965. The study was initiated in 1985 with 1,539 pre-school and kindergartners in 23 Chicago sites, and was funded by the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development and the National Institute for the Education of At-Risk Students in the Office of Educational Research and Improvement, U. S. Department of Education.

The study followed the progress of CPC students, through their school-age years, monitoring them through means such as school records, interviews and surveys. The majority of students, 93 percent, in the Title I program were African American. Eighty-four percent live below the poverty line, 70 percent come from single-parent homes, 58 percent of their parents were high school graduates, and 92 percent attended Chicago public schools for six or more years. The youth in the study were scheduled to graduate in 1998/1999.

The study revealed that students who attended the CPC had greater levels of school readiness at ages five and six; higher school achievement test scores through age 15; less need for school remedial services by age 18, lower rates of child maltreatment by age 17; lower rates of juvenile arrest by age 18; and higher rates of high school completion by age 20. Among other things, the study showed a significant decline in juvenile crime and dropout rates.}

bu"wheat also said:
"OASD has eliminated virtually every program designed to keep at-risk kids in school."

East High is not only still in existence, I believe it is expanding and there are other programs at the high schools designed to keep students in school till they graduate.

Where is your data that VIP or the Teen Parent Program or even Journeys (the enrollment at Journeys went from 50 when it opened to 14 when it closed, that is a fact)kept students in school? Mind you I'm not saying they didn't but you can't demand proof from eveyone else then not provide any yourself. Where are your research reports proving that the programs you specified achieved the results you say they did?

As for a lot having changed since the Civil Rights Movement and Affirmative Action, your last disgusting sentence tells me not enough has changed.

Anonymous said...

And OASD 4K compares to CPC how? Chicago is comparable to Oshkosh how? The single study of 1500 students in one city compared to the millions in cities across the country proves what? AMA may have stringent requirements, but all scholarly journals print studies to encourage research and discussion. If you research isfactually based and meets the requirements you could publish just about any viewpoint. You could probably get an article on segregating the races as a self-esteem builder published in the AMA with enough supporting research.

You thorw it out there, and when your opinions or research is questioned, you turn it around and demand proof while only offering thin semblances of such yourself. It was your argument, you hold the burden of proof. You want proof about the programs already cut by OASD, ask those kids who no longer attend school. As the former teachers who have watched their kids slip away. Can one charter really make up for all that has been lost? I am not willing to give up on the kids already in school in the hopes of saving a child who has yet to start school and has yet to need anything but play time and nap time.

Shame on you for denying a child who is in our system an education because it is envogue to divert resources to a child who could be served elsewhere in our community.

Anonymous said...

One can find a study to back any argument. And Teresa does.

Teresa Thiel said...

Anon said "You want proof about the programs already cut by OASD, ask those kids who no longer attend school."

The fact is Oshkosh had students drop-out of school even when the programs you mentioned were in place. I did not support the elimination of the Teen Parent program but that program was NOT cut because of 4K as I stated before, after the initial 2 years (due to the way the state funds schools) the cost of 4K will be covered by the state aid the district will receive for each student.

There are numerous studies out there on the benefits of 4K a number of them by economists but I'm not going to waste my time researching and copying them because there are some out there who are not looking for information on the subject but who just want to shoot down every idea that comes along. I don't have time for that game.

Teresa Thiel said...

Anonymous also said "Shame on you for denying a child who is in our system an education because it is envogue to divert resources to a child who could be served elsewhere in our community."

As had been pointed out numerous times, resources were NOT diverted from VIP or Teen Parent to provide 4K and if you watched the board meeting you would have heard the woman from Head Start say that the 4K program allowed a number of Head Start students the opportunity to be served who would OTHERWISE NOT have been served. I don't recall the exact number of students, but she did say there was a waiting list for children to be served by Head Start so your statement that these children could be served elsewhere in the community isn't really accurate is it? Or do you subscribe to the belief that if you can't afford to provide the experience to your child they just don't get that experience?

Anonymous said...

No, we do not shoot down every idea. But it does seem like you support every feel good idea that comes along. We can not afford all these programs. You say the costs are covered by the state. On paper it always seems like they are. The reality is there are always hidden cost down the road, or worse yet the state backs off on its promises. At some point Doyle will not be govenor and the raiding of the highway funds will stop and our schools will be in trouble.

Teresa Thiel said...

When economists all over the country say quality preschool has a return on investment of 16 to one I wouldn't call that a "feel good" program I would call that spending dollars where they have the most impact.

4K was funded under Republican Administrations.

If you don't think schools are in trouble now, you certainly haven't been paying attention. Oshkosh is going to cut another $800,000 on top of the $1.5M already cut for next year.

Saying NO to everything that comes along and refusing to change anything that is currently happening doesn't make for good schools.

Anonymous said...

Thiel said: "as I stated before, after the initial 2 years (due to the way the state funds schools) the cost of 4K will be covered by the state aid the district will receive for each student."

So who pays for the entire cost for the first two years? Oh, make that three. If I remember correctly, the workshop said three years before the state pays 100% of the per student revenue.

Anonymous said...
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Teresa Thiel said...

Anon said "So who pays for the entire cost for the first two years? Oh, make that three. If I remember correctly, the workshop said three years before the state pays 100% of the per student revenue. "

The state pays 1/3 of the state aid for fte (full time equivalent -in Oshkosh's case, I believe it is .6 rather than .5 for 4K because the plan is community based rather than school based) the first year, 2/3 the second year and 3/3 or 100% the third year.

Anonymous said...

Where do we get the extra class rooms from? Aren't Oakwood and Traeger at the limit already?

Teresa Thiel said...

Anon. said "Where do we get the extra class rooms from? Aren't Oakwood and Traeger at the limit already?"

We don't need "extra" classrooms, many of the 4K classes will take place in Head Start and Day Care Centers, with the district either providing the Certified Teacher or the organizations providing their own Certified Teacher and partnering with the district re: curriculum etc.

Anonymous said...

So when Dr. H. states both Oakwood and Traeger have no seats available he was including day care that was taking place in a given school?

Teresa Thiel said...

Anon. 12:15 said: So when Dr. H. states both Oakwood and Traeger have no seats available he was including day care that was taking place in a given school?

I have no idea what the above means...

Dr. Heilmann was talking about K-5 seats at Oakwood and K-8 seats at Traeger... those schools are all full. He was not talking about 4K at all.

Day care is NOT taking place in Oshkosh Schools, 4K is taking place in SOME day cares in Oshkosh.

Anonymous said...

Ms. Theil,

When looking at enrollment data from the DPI website I see several schools in Oshkosh have a Pre-K program. What is the difference between Pre-K and 4K? Thanks.

Teresa Thiel said...

Pre-K and 4-K are sometimes used interchangably and I think the 4-K committee said they didn't want to call it 4-K but I can't remember if the term they were using was "early learner" or something else. I use the term 4-K to describe the Universal Access program the district is instituting for 4 year olds.

I think the Pre-K on the DPI website encompasses any child served who is not in K but I'm not sure about that.

The Pre-K the district has listed for years before this school year was either Early Childhood programs for 3 and 4 year olds with special needs and Pre-K ELL (English Language Learners).

This school year there were a couple 4-K classrooms at Webster as part of the Charter School and other 4-K classrooms with Head Start.

Anonymous said...

I see Mrs. Monte (AKA New Voice) is over on the ONW forum attacking your logic again, Mrs. Thiel. What is it about this woman and her arrogance that make her think she has all the right answers? She has shown time after time she can't get along with others and her softened act was nothing more than that. God she is sickening.

BTW, you'd think that if she's going to refer to someone's hypocrisy she could at least get the spelling right. I know she'll probably say that in her haste to get things written she makes mistakes. Thankfully she was not elected to the school board. We don't need someone who can't be accurate just because they're in a hurry.

Haste makes waste and speed, especially in a school zone, gets you a ticket.

Anonymous said...

The problems in our district are not the fault of "New Voice". Ask one of our recently departed administrators what they think of our administration. It may shock you what you will hear.

Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...

I see Mrs. Monte (AKA New Voice) is over on the ONW forum attacking your logic again, Mrs. Thiel. What is it about this woman and her arrogance that make her think she has all the right answers? She has shown time after time she can't get along with others and her softened act was nothing more than that. God she is sickening.

BTW, you'd think that if she's going to refer to someone's hypocrisy she could at least get the spelling right. I know she'll probably say that in her haste to get things written she makes mistakes. Thankfully she was not elected to the school board. We don't need someone who can't be accurate just because they're in a hurry.

Haste makes waste and speed, especially in a school zone, gets you a ticket. Isn't that right Mrs. Michelle Luchsinger Monte?

Anonymous said...

I don't know if she's New Voice or not but they sound exactly alike. What I also can tell you Michelle Monte is posting such outrageous stuff there under her own name. She's even twisting other people's words and they're calling her out on it. But the Montes have come to be known for twisting and distorting things to make their case. Most of us are smart enough to see through it and have chosen to ignore them.

Anonymous said...

You people are funny, or is it one person in particular. WHo knows and who cares. All of these posts could be one person or dozens. What is clear is that Mrs. Thiel clearly has no ethics or moral compass. Her jusdgment is seriously impared to continue to allow this dialogue to continue. No wonder Mrs. Thiel came in dead last.

What is this fascination with someone who is not elected anyway? Can't find anything better to do on a summer's day? How sad.

Anonymous said...

Concerned Citizen, Observer, and Thiel all sound alike, does that mean they are? Probably.

Anonymous said...

7:28, you apparently don't have anything better to do either. If you want to talk about a moral compass you should look at Michelle Lunchsinger Monte's track record. Not very pretty.

As far as the last election goes, last or just in front of last Monte wasn't elected either - neither one. Teresa Thiel can at least say she's served, has the respect of the district, and doesn't distort the truth. Whether you like the message or not, it never changes.

On the other hand, Monte changes her position by saying "that's not what I meant" and twists others words in making an argument. Is that a sign of someone who is just downright dishonest and will say anything at any cost to get herself elected or is it a sign of someone who doesn't have a clear enough position on the issues? Maybe it's a sign of someone who just can't stay focused.

Whatever it is I'm glad we don't have to deal with it and I doubt we ever will.

Anonymous said...

Thiel may have served but if she had the respect of the community, she would not have lost to a Monte.

BTW, if I recall the Northwestern stuff correctly, her middle name starts with an A, duh.

Anonymous said...

I think Observer on Oshkonversation is Mrs. Monte. They both seem to twist things around to their/her own definitions, particularly if it looks like they/she aren't/isn't getting their/her way. Arguing with herself would be just the deviousness anonymouses here accuse Mrs. Monte of.

Anonymous said...

Duh, 1:13, the egg is on your face. No one said Luchsinger was Michelle Monte's middle name. That was your own dumb assumption. It is her former last name. Check it out before writing and sounding like such a dope. DUH!!!!!

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Anonymous said...

Just answering the question 3:43. You seem to have a problem with that. I wonder why you've taken it as such a personal affront. Hmm...???

Anonymous said...

Who cares? You must 3:43 PM or you wouldn't have wasted your time writing a response. Next silly question?

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Anonymous said...

I was with you until your last comment in which your own snarky personality got the better of you and gave us leanings toward your own identity. That destroyed the rest of your message.