Do you subscribe to the "if we don't say it, it must not be true"? Do you think that pretending something isn't real makes it go away? OK, enough of the mystery.
Oshkosh is a divided community; certainly the school district community is divided by sides of town.
One poster on OshKonversation posted this:
"...particularly those who clearly choose to use the west-side/north-side language in describing our community and clearly favor certain schools or sides of town. I also question having administrators who act in the same manor (sic)."
So if we don't "talk about it" it makes it go away, I don't know if that is naïveté, ignorance, or politics, but I just don't think that if you sweep the dirt under the rug it means the dirt is gone.
For me, this post, from a different poster, also from OshKonversation proves my point:
...Perhaps we just need to hire a spot-on marketing team to promote Merrill and North? The question is what can you do to persuade people on the west side who seem to be afraid to send their children there. and from the same poster- ... When you look at the proximity of all the child sexual offenders living in the area around Merrill it's incredibly concerning. The test scores at Merrill are of course disappointing but the district won't even consider that as a problem since each school is supposed to provide the same quality of education.
I would tell parents who are worried about test scores, rest assured, your children's test scores will follow them to Merrill. My children went to Jefferson, not a school with the highest of test scores but my children got a WONDERFUL education and their personal test scores would rival those of any Oakwood student. I say this not to brag about my children but to point out that the major predictor of a student's standardized test score is their parent's education level and income. My children have two college educated parents and a middle class home. That is not the case with many Jefferson families and unfortunately that is reflected in test scores, it is NOT a reflection of the quality of education children receive. Does anyone really believe that if the entire staff at a Jefferson or Merrill were switched with the entire staff at Oakwood that the test scores at Oakwood would go down and those at Jefferson or Merrill would be the top in the district?
I would say there are definitely "sides of town" namely the West and the North, it is sad, it is divisive and it is not to any one's benefit to support a divided town. However, to criticize people for stating what is obvious and instead pretending no such divisions exist does absolutely nothing to fix a serious issue. Burying one's head in the sand like the ostrich does not bring people together. The first step to fixing a problem is ADMITTING there is one.
I have lived in this town for about 16 years and what struck me right away when I moved here was the constant talk about the "West Side" and the "North Side". I grew up in Milwaukee and there, there were 4 sides of town --- just like the 4 compass points East Side, North Side, West Side and South Side. I think a big part of there being only 2 sides is the fact that we have 2 high school --- is it really coincidence they are called North and West? (Note: I do know we now have 3 high schools but since East is an Alternative High School it doesn't really factor in the same way).
I remember the year Oshkosh North High was on their way to the state tournament for football and some West students were actually cheering for North's opponent to win the game so North would be eliminated, as West had already been. If that is not divisiveness I don't know what you'd call it. I have heard North students and their parents say West students are snobs with silver spoons in their mouth and West students and parents say North students are losers, etc. It is sad, it is wrong and it is time it stops. But I also believe it is wrong to criticize those who have brought it out in the open and spoken about it whether they be board members, administrators or average citizens. Let's admit the problem, face it and take steps to correct it. Perhaps the first step is to implement the selected boundary changes and give people a chance to see that the world goes on and life isn't so bad, even if you go to school with someone from the "other" side of town.
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I think the problem was only made worse when a board member stated that North was her favorite school. What was she thinking? I guess you weren't around in the 70's and 80's when the West side was looked down upon, laughed at, called losers, a farmer school, and much worse. Sounds like you need an Oshkosh history lesson. Many have long memories. It happened. The roles have reversed and many do not like it. That does not make it right, but it is fact. It took decades to get to this point. It may take a long time to heal the wounds. As for the football comment. Sure there may have been a few cheering for the opponent. Very few. The same thing happened recently with West bball. But if you remember, administration allowed approx. 8 West students to transfer to North FOR FOOTBALL the championship year for North. Not a thing that will promote harmony in the city. Please tell the whole story when you post. Any one who has walked the halls of Merrill would be concerned about sending their child in to that environment. It can be a scary place for children. I do not doubt the teachers at Merrill are on par with all other schools. We have very good teachers in our district. I think it is all about the environment we want our children taught in. The violence and number of troubled children at that school scare many. We do have a choice in where we live and send our children. At least for now. We should be concentrating on how we help those children at Merrill. Sending kids with a "silver spoon" from Oakwood or Traeger to Merrill will not help the problem. In fact I would suggest it will increase the divide and make it worse. Do you expect those on the North side who call the West side kids arrogant and silver spoon kids to just accept those same West side kids they dislike so much. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Can you say social engineering? This is not something a school district should be involved in.
The point of my post was NOT a history lesson, and I do know the district's/community's history. The point was that this community IS divided and criticizing people for stating that is not a way to make things better. Whatever the reason for students from one school in a community to root for the opponent rather than the hometown team --- shows a divided community, that was the purpose of that example.
Just because it "happened in the past" isn't a reason to NOT try and fix it.
The fact is, Oakwood and Traeger are FULL, some students who attend those schools have to go elsewhere, Roosevelt and Merrill have room, someone has to go there.
I believe it is beneficial for children to experience all types of students, even the "troubled" ones as you put it, I KNOW my children are better off having gone to Jefferson. It is a global world out there and trying to isolate your children so they only come in contact with those just like them is NOT, in my opinion, beneficial to success in the world.
Believe me there are troubled students in all schools. The kids I want my children to avoid are the gangs, thugs, and kids who want to do harm to others. I chose to have my children avoid those types. For that reason I chose to live on the far west side vs the inner city. That is my choice.
Correction: It was 4 West players that transfered to North the year after the State Championship thru OPEN enrollment. North traded their Band Director for them and lost on the deal. (HA HA) The problem started between sides of town in Oshkosh with the strike of 1898 and it still lives today. In the early 1980's, the poeople on the westside of town took pressure of school closings there by proposing the Closing of North High. It was defeated by a 4-3 vote. That's how long the OASD has been divided. Check the records and study the history. PLEASE
I understand that Oshkosh has a LONG history of being divided but I really believe that just because it has always been so it doen not follow that it always MUST BE so. We can change things but as I said before, we must start by acknowledging there IS a problem.
Yes we do have a problem and most everyone will acknowledge that. No, it does not have to be that way, and we should work on fixing it. Using our kids as part of the social experiment is not acceptable. Is that the job of the school district? The Supreme Court does not think social engineering is acceptable. Do you really believe sending "silver spoon/arrogant kids" to a school with the demographics Merrill has will work? Do you think those kids will be welcomed with open arms? We are dealing with gangs, and children from very poor families. Will they accept the new "arrogant kids" with their designer clothes, cell phones, and I-Pods? That is a fantasy, not reality. I would suggest it may be a recipe for disaster. Do you want to take that chance? I for one do not want my child to be part of that social experiment. There are ways to bring this city together. Moving children around the district to achieve a socioeconomic balance is not one of them. Maybe the city and the school district could meet to work on ways to bring our city together.
I suggest people read about the LaCrosse School District and what they did in the early 1990's...
There was a Community Attitudes
Task Force. Members of that group issued a statement in support of the socioeconomic balance plan. Here is that statement:
"The value of diversity does not flow only to the disadvantaged student.
It is an educational necessity for all of our children. Perhaps
the most important lesson we can now teach our children for life in
the 21st century is how to live in a world of diversity. Children who
are taught they are better than someone else because of where they
live, how they dress, their wealth or social standing, or that they
are entitled to special privileges, or that they are not required to share in the sacrifices of the world, are destined for disappointment,
disillusionment and ultimately failure in a world that has become
increasingly intolerant of those 19th century myths."
I think that statement is still true today.
In LaCrosse the plan to have socioeconomic balance in their schools had huge opposition to the plan BEFORE it was implemented, however, "two years after it was implemented 60% of La Crosse school district residents surveyed said they favored “the idea of attempting socio-economic balance in the schools,” and 29 percent said they opposed it."
"In a follow-up survey in April 2001, 64 percent said they favored socioeconomic balance, while only 21 percent said they were opposed."
The most interesting thing of all was that in one school to create the balance the "plan that worked
the best in terms of the numbers was one that used several isolated attendance area “islands” to provide socioeconomic balance. For example, in a middle-class area on the south side of La Crosse, far from the Jefferson Elementary School attendance area, was an island of several blocks where
students were assigned to attend Jefferson."
Initially people were VERY upset about this, but the most interesting thing of all is:
"In terms of public support for the schools, it is interesting to note that when some school board members were considering the possibility in 1999 of closing Jefferson School, some of the strongest supporters for keeping it open were in the attendance island created in 1991"
So once parents experienced having their children attend a different school not only did they find it wasn't so bad, they actually became staunch supporters of that school.
I believe this too can happen in Oshkosh and begin the process of bringing this town together.
Boy, you would think by reading some of these posts that Merrill is in the ghetto! My children go to Merrill. We are involved in the school enough to know many parents, teachers, and students. Maybe I am lkiving in a dream world but I have not experienced the "gang" issues some speak of in this blog. C'mon people this is not Chicago! I came her from a huge metropolitan area and I believe many don't even know what life is like in that realm. I am not suggesting Merrill does not have its issues, but so do Traeger, etc. Not being from this city I get a huge laugh at how people percieve things based on how they were years ago. Grow up Oshkosh!
Thank you, thank you Anonymous 3:30... I echo your sentiments. I have to laugh every time someone talks about the "inner city" of Oshkosh. I'm not sure if I live in the "inner city" or not but I grew up in Milwaukee --- Oshkosh does NOT have an "inner city" as that term is used in Milwaukee.
I think it is unreasonable in a global world to try and make sure your children are only exposed to those who are just like you. As I said before I KNOW my children are better off in many ways by going to Jefferson and being exposed to a diversity of people.
As for friendship, true friendship survives different schools, my daughter who will be in 8th grade still has a friendship with a girl who went to Jefferson only in 2nd and 3rd grades. They talk on the phone, instant message, have sleepovers and go to parties together. The whole friendship issue just doesn't fly for me. Children makes friends all the time and they will NOT be damaged if their friend or neighbor goes to a differnt school.
If Oshkosh does not have an "inner city" (poverty and crime) why do some want to move children from the west side to Merrill? No Oshkosh is not like Milwaukee, but to not call it an inner city problem is just being blind. Our city seems to think we have a problem. Did you ever hear of the Near East Neighborhood Project? Yes, this is a city problem. You may be very happy where your kids go to school. So am I. Don't I have a right to chose where I live and send my children to the school I chose just as you do? Sure Traeger and Oakwood have their share of problems such as bullying. All schools have problems. I chose to live on the West side based on my comfort level with those schools. I respect your opinions but wish you would not try to force them down my throat. I like where my kids go to school now and you seem to like where your kids go. Why do you feel the need to move my children? We do have diversity on the West side, not nearly as much as the North side. My children have friends of different cultures and races. Move the boundaries as needed to make the district efficient, but leave the social experiments to other cities. My children are not lab rats.
The fact is Oakwood and Traeger (Middle & Elementary) are full and North's enrollment is declining. Merrill has room. Something needs to be done to alleviate the over crowding at Oakwood and the current plan moving some of the Oakwood attendance area to Roosevelt and having that area feed to Merrill and North does that. It is not a "soical experiment" it is a boundary change that addresses many issues.
I have no problem with a boundary change via shifting boundaries. We all know that needs to be done. You and I both know that is not what was originally proposed. We also know certain board members would like the social experiment I spoke of.
If you read the PMP report, community members in the focus groups brought up the socioeconomic differences in our schools and asked that they be addressed -- see 3 c. below:
From the PMP report:
Boundary Changes
We believe that the community as a whole will support change, although a minority will be significantly distressed and actively resist. We offer the following guidance based on the schools we saw, the data we received from district administration, and what we heard from the community during the entire project.
3. In order to accomplish educational parity at West and North High Schools, you might consider:
a. Shifting the path of one elementary school from Oshkosh West to Oshkosh North and accept less balanced middle schools if necessary for a while to balance high school populations.
b. Shifting the path of selected attendance neighborhoods from one or more middle schools in order to balance high school populations.
c. Addressing the unstated perception, right or wrong, of demographic differences in student populations leading to unequal educational experiences and outcomes at the high schools.
So the board members were just addressing an issue that was brought up by the community in focus groups, and all that I have seen bears out the above comments that "a minority will be significantly distressed and actively resist". That is what we have seen a small group very opposed but a majority believing this needs to be addressed.
There you go picking and choosing and misinforming along the way. Merrill does not have room without an expansion. Check your facts, lady.
Anonymous 8:35, I don't think it is MY facts that need checking --- it is YOURS.
From the Sunday, Northwestern:
You can read the entire article here: http://www.thenorthwestern.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070729/OSH0101/707290445/1128/OSHnews
Here are a few excerpts from the article:
"The plan that the attendance area planning team will present to the board will take the eastern part of the Oakwood Elementary attendance area, the section of the Franklin Elementary attendance north of Witzel Ave., and the northern most part of the Roosevelt Elementary attendance area and send all of those students to Roosevelt primary, Merrill intermediate and onto Oshkosh North High School. "
"There would not be any additional cost generated from this boundary shift," McDermott said. "I think (this option) is the best option that we have available to achieve the objectives that we wanted to."
"Dennis Remington, principal at North and planning team member, said he likes the chosen option because "it does not require any construction related costs."
So it seems you were wrong, Anon. As I stated, Merrill HAS room and there will NOT need to be any addition to Merrill to accomodate the boundary change.
Changes need to be made, I have no problem with this proposal. The lines are fairly contiguous. I did have a problem with the "cherry picking" proposals made in the early months of the process. Of the 3 plans left on the table I believe plan B would have required additions to schools. I made most of the posts in this thread, but did not make the ones stating Merrill needed and addition or calling you on your facts. My point all along was to not cherry pick kids based on socio-economics. I am for change without social engineering.
Mrs. Thiel,
I think you need to attend some committee meetings and not rely so much on the ONW. Other committees are carrying around documents that show Merrill will be increased in size to fit 900 students. Can't do that without construction. The principal of Merrill verifies this, I talked to her. Also, I attended a past ASC/CRT meeting where Mrs. Monte asked Mrs. Muza if there were enough room for the students right now as the capacity did not seem to match the suggestion. Mrs. Muza said not at this time, but an expansion is planned and the reconfiguration would also healp with capacity issues.
So much for no additional costs. I guess that is true when you figure that an addition was planned anyway. So while coarse, 8:35 made a valid point.
Anonymous 5:47
I was not relying on the Northwestern so much as I was 2 members of the committee, Board member Tom McDermott and North High Principal Dennis Remmington who both were quoted as saying that boundary change would not require any additional cost for this option.
I will follow up and see what the real story is, since you posted anonymously I have no way of knowing if your information is credible.
Blah blah blah, anonymous 5:47 PM. You think Mrs. Monte is the only one who can ever get her facts straight? She's been wrong more times than most of us care to remember. Besides, the comments in the ONW were made in preparation for the article in today's edition. Did you ever stop to think that some things have changed since your precious Mrs. Monte opened her mouth at a meeting? Did you ever stop to think that maybe others misunderstood the question or, god forbid, the answer?
It's so fascinating how some of you continue to complain how well connected Mrs. Thiel is to the school district. Yet here you are accusing her of relying only on the ONW for her information. Exactly which is it? I'd trust something Mrs. Theil said any day of the week over something Mrs. Monte said. Besides, here we also have quotes from people connected to the process. You've offered no validation at all for your comment. That's more credible in my book than unsubtantiated statements like those you've offered.
BTW 5:47, what does this mean..."So while coarse,"??????????? You're baffling.
I have sent an e-mail to district personnel to clarify but in looking at the minutes from the Attendance Area Committee I did find the following:
Review of Option E (which is the option chosen and the option that will go to the board for approval on Aug. 22)
Examining all the boundary shifts across the district will move and make space available.
Merrill will have some internal facility changes but there will not be an addition.
At some point I'm sure an addition was considered at Merrill but since the board has given the go ahead to the Primary/ Intermediate configuration, perhaps that is why an addition is no longer needed.
So are the internal changes done for FREE? Or is there are price tag attached to it Mrs Theil?
It doesn't matter. The district and the board will do whatever they want. Not necessarily what is good for the students.
Or is there are price tag attached to it Mrs Theil?
What does that mean?? Oh and her name is spelled Thiel
One mistake was intentional and the other wasn't. You can figure out for yourself which was which.
Eeeeewwwww, you are quite the comedian. Unfortunately your attempt at humor has failed because people have missed such subtleties. I will hazard a guess and say you're the only one who gets it. Don't give up your day job (if you have one).
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